Curse

CAT · Feb 02, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

I'm not very fond of the current GvG fad (only 2 monks then all of the characters have defensive skills) And I think that running a classic 3 monk build would work really well with what everyone else is running(active restore prot hurting lots of stuff, warrior builds with aegis/guardian and crip shot rangers with restore conditions.

Anyway, my point is that, with running a 4 offensive char build, you dont always have enough offense to get past the normal 2 monk backline. I decided I think it would work best if we had 1 or even 2 mesmers that could shut down the boon prots, then just 2 damage dealers, probably warriors, that could just dp the monks out while they are drained. It would be a slowkill build but having 3 monks would work.

So I thought this should be an easy build and it would work, but then i started trying to design my mesmer builds. Migraine is out of the question with them running CoP and hex removal off of monks. All hexes are really out of the question. After a lot of thinking here were my two choices for mesmer builds. I only listed 6 skills because the last 2 are res sig/hard res and a support skill.

Shutdown
Echo, Diversion, Shame, Arcane Thievery, Drain Enchant

Edenail/Shutdown Hybrid
Esurge, Eburn, Weariness, Shame, Diversion, Mind Wrack

I'm not quite sure i could shut down a boon prot with either of those. Suggestions? What has worked for you in the past if you use mesmers in gvg vrs boon prots,

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 02, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

I had thought about these awhile back, the only real way to shutdown a boon prot monk became E-denial and some heavy knowdown/interruption.

Mesemer interruption can't be spam like ranger, that's out. (many of prot skill are too fast to be ever caught without slow down)
Hex can actually still do a decent job, but it can not be as effective as before (rend enchantment + backfire/diversion will allow you to put enough hex on them for a short amount of time, your hex chain will have to all go on at that moment) I had a build posted somewhere in campfire mesemer build (I made that e-denial build just to see if I can ride over CoP monks, worked out fine)

Hex outside of Me/N? Hopeless.

If anything, a ranger with serpent quickness + savage/distracting/punishing, might be more useful in stopping these monks than a hex mesemer.

Another thing is gale, the lockdown gale warriors give are quite formidable for just about every monk.

JR · Feb 02, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Finding a good balance between offense, defence and shut down is probably the most critical point in buildmaking.

The build you suggest, with two domination mesmers, is definately viable. Nu runs two surge/burn dom mesmers at the moment, if I recall correctly. However, that is two less directly offensive characters. For example, in your case you have two shutdown mesmers, three monks, and I would assume a flag runner. This leaves you two characters to actually be dealing the damage. Which can work, but is going to make for some very long attrition battles. Personally I would be tempted to stick to a two monk backline, which will give you much more room to play with offence. Even some kind of utility defence character like a trapper or ward spammer, which will also put additonal pressure on the other team because they can pack offensive skills aswell.

As for mesmer builds, I can give you a couple to work with, but its a bit hard without the full build. For example we often run a domination mesmer with Martyr and a fast cast hard res. Whether or not you would want to do that really depends on the rest of your build.

However, here is a fairly solid Glyph domination mesmer. Not so much monk shutdown as damage, but it still works very nicely.

Glyph Dom Mesmer

Mesmer/Elementalist
Level: 20

Fast Casting: 10 (9+1)
Domination Magic: 16 (12+4)
Inspiration Magic: 10 (9+1)

- Resurrection Signet ()
- Glyph of Renewal [Elite] (Elementalist other)
- Energy Burn (Domination Magic)
- Power Leak (Domination Magic)
- Shatter Enchantment (Domination Magic)
- Shatter Hex (Domination Magic)
- Power Drain (Inspiration Magic)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)

Alternatively you could go with a straight surge edenial mesmer:

Edenial Mesmer

Mesmer/Elementalist
Level: 20

Fast Casting: 10 (9+1)
Domination Magic: 16 (12+4)
Inspiration Magic: 10 (9+1)

- Resurrection Signet ()
- Energy Surge [Elite] (Domination Magic)
- Energy Burn (Domination Magic)
- Signet of Weariness (Domination Magic)
- Shame (Domination Magic)
- Mind Wrack (Domination Magic)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
- Power Drain (Inspiration Magic)

There are plenty more options of course, but these are just two standard lines.

Esrever · Feb 02, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

If anything, a ranger with serpent quickness + savage/distracting/punishing, might be more useful in stopping these monks than a hex mesemer.

A Ranger is going to have a tough time hitting the Monk's spells with any sort of accuracy, as almost all of the spells take less than a second to cast. Add in firing and flight time and lag, and you basically just have to spam interrupts and hope you get lucky. An interrupt Mesmer will do a little better, but you'll need to have some serious reaction times to hit consistently. Your best bet is going with a surge Mesmer with Mantra of Inscriptions and Signet of Humility to knock out Offering of Blood.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 02, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esrever

Add in firing and flight time and lag, and you basically just have to spam interrupts and hope you get lucky.

exactly my point. The flight time help with getting lucky. I have a easier time timing my shot and the flight time for a target's spell than mesemer interrupting a mend or reversal of fortune.

The ONLY spells you might catch is guardian and holy veil as interrupt mesemer. If no hex are present, they won't use holy veil either. However, how would you have the reaction time to catch them and identify them using guardian? While holy veil is the only hope... a skill that isnt even use as often as CoP, might as well not bother, one line of skills to interrupt one spell? Don't try.

palak · Feb 02, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

you guys are missing one of the best skills for monk shutdown, mantra of inscript + signet of humility. 75% or so of the monks run use their elite for some kind of way to get energy back. Most obviously with boon prot and oob. Take out the oob for 100% of the time and they take a big drop in energy.

tafy69 · Feb 02, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Or and this is what i do is...

Keep stripping their boon and apply diversion, its quite nasty.

they will either lose their boon or another skill, or sit the diversion out. Either way you are quids in vs the poor boon prot.

SaintGreg · Feb 02, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

If you can keep diversion on without it falling off theres really nothing any monk can do. Whether you use an echo, mantra of recovery, or whatever, diversion spam just plain owns. They can't contemplation of purity it off like a boon prot would to migraine, backfire, or similar anti-casting because then they can't contemplation any more and you will have diversion back on them fast anyways. If you have 2 such mesmers they can't even holy veil it off each other because they will both be sitting useless with a diversion do or die scenario. If you are fighting in two groups split up from each other, and they have no offensive hex removal, again there is really nothing the monk can do.

Energy drain is good, and it does damage as well which is nice, but after you get them to zero all you can ever do is pin them to zero and they will just use focus swap for healing. They do do less healing then they would, but they can get heals off, which won't help you with only 2 warriors hacking away for damage plus the mind wrack damage.

Manfred · Feb 03, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

mhmm... but after that focus swapped heals you have negative energy on the monks. I would recommend a 2 mesmer tag team with panic, echoed migraine, and ether lord for complete regen stoppage for about 15 seconds of battle.

shatter/drain enchants before they can cop, and activate mantra of inscriptions before lord, then ether lord them ftw and begin with signet spam.

JR · Feb 03, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manfred

mhmm... but after that focus swapped heals you have negative energy on the monks. I would recommend a 2 mesmer tag team with panic, echoed migraine, and ether lord for complete regen stoppage for about 15 seconds of battle.

I assume he meant swap DOWN to a negative energy set, so your full energy pool can never quite be drained. You will always have 15/17 in reserve. This way you can swap back to your primary set for quick heals, then swap back to hide energy and regen safely again.

Panic and Ether Lord are again owned by focus swapping, and all three are owned by CoP.

Blaine Derrick · Feb 03, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Panic and Ether Lord are again owned by focus swapping, and all three are owned by CoP.

How would focus swapping own Panic or Ether Lord? Neither end when you hit zero energy, so even if you swap down you will still be denied two pips of regen for however long the hex remains on you.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 03, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

If you leave the focus on, that allow the degen to slowly work it out.

If you have the focus off, then the degen won't effect a single energy unless it go negative (which it don't).

One of the reason gale warrior is so powerful was because of these focus swapping too.

Blaine Derrick · Feb 03, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

If you leave the focus on, that allow the degen to slowly work it out.

If you have the focus off, then the degen won't effect a single energy unless it go negative (which it don't).

One of the reason gale warrior is so powerful was because of these focus swapping too.

Ok, I'm not sure we are on the same page here, so I'll elaborate a bit.

Both Panic and Ether Lord cause energy degen on a target. Now, unlike direct energy denial, this cannot be hurt by swapping to a low energy focus set, because your energy regeneration is now halved. The point of focus swapping when under direct energy denial (SoW, e-surge, etc...) is to "hide" your energy in a high energy focus set while still preserving your natural energy regen rate. While hexed with Panic or Ether Lord this is no longer effective, because the energy you are losing comes from your natural regen pips, not your actual current energy pool.

And, to get somewhat back on topic, I find that a nice GoR dom mesmer can counter boon prots quite effectively, only you will have to focus quite a bit of your attention on him if you want him to be shut down for any significant period of time (doubly so if they have CoP). This is somewhat undesirable, as one of the great strength's of a GoR dom mesmer (and any well built mesmer for that matter) is the ability to harras multiple targets at the same time. A well timed signet of humilty can also cause a boon prot quite a bit of grief. And of course, there is the always popular gale knocklock + warrior face stomping counter to deal with pesky boon protters.

JR · Feb 03, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaine Derrick

How would focus swapping own Panic or Ether Lord? Neither end when you hit zero energy, so even if you swap down you will still be denied two pips of regen for however long the hex remains on you.

Ok, own was a bit too strong of a word. Focus swapping down would just limit the amount they could degen, allowing you a limited pool of energy to work from untill the hexes can be removed or end. I guess I just think that any time you can cripple a hex by pressing one button... is fairly usefull.

tafy69 · Feb 03, 2006, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Ok, own was a bit too strong of a word. Focus swapping down would just limit the amount they could degen, allowing you a limited pool of energy to work from untill the hexes can be removed or end. I guess I just think that any time you can cripple a hex by pressing one button... is fairly usefull.

The fact is it doesnt end on 0 energy so even tho your protecting the energy you have left, your regen is still gimped. Also sitting on 0 energy and with Panic your either gonna have to swap out again soon to heal people or let things die or wait extremely long time for 5 energy to heal somehting.

Focus swapping is nice vs surge/burn mesmers though, just not panic by itself.

JR · Feb 03, 2006, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

The fact is it doesnt end on 0 energy so even tho your protecting the energy you have left, your regen is still gimped. Also sitting on 0 energy and with Panic your either gonna have to swap out again soon to heal people or let things die or wait extremely long time for 5 energy to heal somehting.

Focus swapping is nice vs surge/burn mesmers though, just not panic by itself.

Meh, you have a pool of 17 energy saved, more if you switch to a +15e set. Thats enough to cover a couple of heals, an oob and a Veil+CoP.

tafy69 · Feb 03, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Meh, you have a pool of 17 energy saved, more if you switch to a +15e set. Thats enough to cover a couple of heals, an oob and a Veil+CoP.

And your point is?

Ok so if u ran a oob monk with cop you can keep yourself relatively clear of panic. Thats totally different than saying focus swap and panic is owned.

JR · Feb 03, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

And your point is?

Ok so if u ran a oob monk with cop you can keep yourself relatively clear of panic. Thats totally different than saying focus swap and panic is owned.

Sigh, like I said, owned was a bit too strong of a word. Please stop picking at this, its just petty. My point was that focus swapping can temporarily save you from panic/ether lord, in the event that you can't just CoP them off straight away. A miswording on my part, now please drop it and let this thread carry on in due course.

CAT · Feb 03, 2006, 11:58 AM // 11:58

When you CoP diversion it still gets diversioned right? I think im gonna use an edenail/dom hybrid. Constantly taking away energy, keeping wrack on them if they switch, and drain/diversion could mess up their divine boon.

Another idea mentioned that I liked was humility+inscriptions. If i made 2 mesmers, one denail/hybrid and one a denail with humility/inscriptions, I think that would work the best. Ill post my idea for a finalized build later on in the day, thanks for ideas on the mesmers

JR · Feb 03, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Yeah, CoP will get diversioned. However if you have a precast Holy Veil up, you can just drop it and ditch the diversion without worry.